2019 Blue Jays General Discussion Thread

[Kin]

Well, that time of year and everything. Pitchers and Catchers reporting. Stroman upset about something.

Here's their Spring Training Schedule:

http://www.espn.com/mlb/team/schedule/_/name/tor

And to start things off with a medium hot take that allows me to criticize the current management instead of defending it: while I understand the strategic argument for doing it, I think the team is wrong with their plans for Vladdy Jr., the extra year of cheap baseball is not worth bumming out what already figures to be a depressed fan base.

 

[Joe S.]

I don?t have a strong opinion on this one way or another, but isn?t something like the first 15 days he?ll have to spend in triple A and the jays get an extra year if control? That doesn?t seem like that much of a punishment to Vlad or the fans...

Am I missing something?

 

[Andy007]

I don?t have a strong opinion on this one way or another, but isn?t something like the first 15 days he?ll have to spend in triple A and the jays get an extra year if control? That doesn?t seem like that much of a punishment to Vlad or the fans...

Am I missing something?

It's actually 3 weeks but yea, essentially it's just how you put it. If he starts the season on the MLB roster then the Jays lose a year of control. It really makes no sense to give up that year for, what, an extra 3 weeks of Guerrero on a bad Jays team? Ultimately I'd argue that it's eventually a decision that works for the fans, not against them.

 

[Kin]

Why would Jays fans be worried about a year of control when Rogers has said that they'll spend money on the team when the time is right? If the money is there to sign Vladdy when/if he demands big free agent money why do we care if it's 5 or 6 years from now?

 

[hockeyfan1]

Leave it to Stroman to say a mouthful:

?...I can tell you one thing, there?s no one that embodies or loves pitching for the city of Toronto or the country of Canada more than me, nor will you ever find them ... That?s raw passion, emotion, that?s real.?

Of course, of course.

?I think it?s pretty sad that the game?s losing the ability to put these veteran presences in clubhouses because I don?t think that people understand how valuable having those guys in the game are. I would have never been the pitcher I am today if I didn?t have the likes of Mark Buehrle, LaTroy Hawkins, Casey Janssen, Josh Donaldson, Troy Tulowitzki, Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion, Melky Cabrera ...?

Very true.

See Stroman?s views here:
https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2019/02/17/marcus-stroman-talks-about-bouncing-back-being-a-blue-jay-and-competing-in-boston-and-the-bronx.html

 

[Andy007]

Why would Jays fans be worried about a year of control when Rogers has said that they'll spend money on the team when the time is right? If the money is there to sign Vladdy when/if he demands big free agent money why do we care if it's 5 or 6 years from now?

If all it takes is literally 3 weeks to gain a full extra year of control, why would you give it up, regardless of how much money there, potentially, is?

 

[Kin]

If all it takes is literally 3 weeks to gain a full extra year of control, why would you give it up, regardless of how much money there, potentially, is?

Me as a fan or me as a hypothetical GM?

 

[Andy007]

If all it takes is literally 3 weeks to gain a full extra year of control, why would you give it up, regardless of how much money there, potentially, is?

Me as a fan or me as a hypothetical GM?

It's rhetorical, so you can be whoever you want in the proposed role-play. I'm not sure how it changes things. As a fan I realize that this team has punted the season and thus should not waste a year of control for absolutely no reason.

 

[Kin]

It's rhetorical, so you can be whoever you want in the proposed role-play. I'm not sure how it changes things. As a fan I realize that this team has punted the season and thus should not waste a year of control for absolutely no reason.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I think it's an important delineation. As a  fan, I don't have contractual control. They could trade him tomorrow and as a fan all I could do is hope they got a good return.

As a fan, my only interest is in the Jays winning games and eventually a championship and I don't see how this helps that provided they're willing to pay him appropriately when they need to, regardless of when that is.

 

[Highlander]

From a business standpoint its good business to hold onto Vlad for the extra year. As three weeks in a lifetime is next to nothing what do we care if he is not in the lineup for 3 weeks when we get an extra year.
Strobro is another example of not letting his agent take care of business.  He is as good as gone now. I guess he should go to Seattle as the Skyneedle sort of resembles the CN tower tattooed on his frame.
Loose lips since ships.

 

[Kin]

From a business standpoint its good business to hold onto Vlad for the extra year.

Ok. I don't care about Rogers and their bottom line. Especially not in a season where they're going to expect fans to pay full price to see a team that they have no interest in investing in. The day I cheer on their good business decision is the day they pass on that money to me.

 

[Andy007]

It's rhetorical, so you can be whoever you want in the proposed role-play. I'm not sure how it changes things. As a fan I realize that this team has punted the season and thus should not waste a year of control for absolutely no reason.

As a fan, my only interest is in the Jays winning games and eventually a championship and I don't see how this helps that provided they're willing to pay him appropriately when they need to, regardless of when that is.

The sticking point for me is the 3 weeks. Now if his service time manipulation consisted of an extended minor league stay of, say, 3 months (or longer) then I'd probably agree with you. The fact that it only takes 3 weeks to ensure an extra year of control makes this, imo, pretty much a non-issue.

And further to that point, what if Vlad doesn't want to re-sign in five years? That extra year of control certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

[Kin]

The sticking point for me is the 3 weeks. Now if his service time manipulation consisted of an extended minor league stay of, say, 3 months (or longer) then I'd probably agree with you. The fact that it only takes 3 weeks to ensure an extra year of control makes this, imo, pretty much a non-issue.

It's certainly not a matter or life and death, I just think they're making the wrong call in how it relates to a fanbase that they're already going to be asking to bear with them for a while.

And further to that point, what if Vlad doesn't want to re-sign in five years? That extra year of control certainly wouldn't hurt.

That seems to me to be such a defeatist attitude that, if it really factored in, would strike me as being the result of a pretty gutless bunch. But even then, all it would do would accelerate things by a year.

And just as legitimately, I could say that by delaying his payday a year you might risk him deciding that if the team is going to bloodlessly treat him like just an asset to be managed, that he might as well get to free agency and test the market to make sure that when his payday comes it's as big as can be.

 

[L K]

To me it actually goes the other way.  If he was 3 months away from a season of control you can legitimately sell the argument that you want him in AAA to work on his defense at 3B. 
3 weeks the only justification for demoting him is team control. 

The organization has come out and said that money was not going to be a factor for this organization  moving forward.  If that is the case the extra year of control shouldn't matter.  It's abundantly clear that in a just world the guy would have been playing in the majors last year let alone in May.  His bat was too good for the minors.  If Brandon Drury breaks camp as the starting 3B coming off his sizzling .169 AVG and Vlad tears the cover off the ball, that looks awful.  I think you risk pissing Vlad's camp off more in that scenario that could have every bit the carry forward animosity between the two camps.

The Blue Jays on field team is projected to be 67.5M by payroll (with them also eating 38.5M for players to play for other teams).  Ticket prices went up/stayed the same in most aspects. 

Season ticket sales are drastically lower.  I think the goodwill of Vlad being in the lineup probably provides more for the fanbase than the extra year of control.

 

[Andy007]

Personally I don't think there's even an argument to sell. He's obviously ready now but he's being sent down for 3 weeks to regain an extra year of control.

And hey, I'm in agreement about Rogers and the ticket prices/payroll. There is no excuse for raising ticket prices in any capacity. I for one would easily prefer lower prices and waiting 3 weeks to see Vlad as opposed to higher prices but Vlad starting the season in the MLB. That would have made a nice compromise, actually.

 

[Deebo]

Season ticket sales are drastically lower.  I think the goodwill of Vlad being in the lineup probably provides more for the fanbase than the extra year of control.

Even if that goodwill is only delayed for 7-8 home games?

 

[Kin]

Season ticket sales are drastically lower.  I think the goodwill of Vlad being in the lineup probably provides more for the fanbase than the extra year of control.

Even if that goodwill is only delayed for 7-8 home games?

I don't actually think the amount of time/number of games matters much. It's hanging a big sign on the front door that says you're not worried about the outcome of the season if you're willing to lose even a single game to this.

Which is fair enough if that's the strategy given the way the league rewards failure but I absolutely think it's fine for fans, after being told not to care about the season, to check out until they can even pretend that they might be watching a winning ballclub.

 

[dappleganger]

There's no team, in any situation, in all of Baseball, that would be doing anything different with Vlad Jr's service time. It's a moot point.

Did it make sense to bring Freddy Galvis into the fold as the starting short stop? Better to go with Gurriel and Travis up the middle and bring in some veteran as a back up?

 

[L K]

Season ticket sales are drastically lower.  I think the goodwill of Vlad being in the lineup probably provides more for the fanbase than the extra year of control.

Even if that goodwill is only delayed for 7-8 home games?

Honestly, no? 

It's more of a principle thing.  Intentionally not fielding your best lineup.  It doesn't really matter if it is 1 game or 100 to me.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Honestly, no? 

It's more of a principle thing.  Intentionally not fielding your best lineup.  It doesn't really matter if it is 1 game or 100 to me.

I mean the Leafs kinda did this with Nylander in the Matthews draft year. That was more of a straight-up tank move than a contract/CBA wrinkle, but still it was the same sorta idea. And that worked out pretty well.